Transcript: Building the Future Podcast with Hans Miller
July 8, 2020
(:57) Kevin Horek: Welcome back to the show. Today we have Hans Miller; he’s the CEO and co-founder of Airside. Hans, welcome to the show.
Hans Miller: Thank you. It’s great to be here.
Kevin Horek: I’m excited to have you on the show. I think what you guys have done and are doing at Airside is actually really innovative and cool, but maybe before we get into all that, let’s get to know you a little bit better and start off with where you grew up.
(1:21) Hans Miller: Sure. I grew up in Marblehead, Massachusetts, just north of Boston, and moved to the Washington, DC area about 25 years ago.
Kevin Horek: Okay, very cool. You went to university… what did you take and why?
Hans Miller: (Laughs)
Kevin Horek: You went to a few!
Hans Miller: Yeah, I went to a few. I got really interested in the intersection of business and government, and so my degrees sort of reflect that.
Kevin Horek: How did you get interested in those two things?
Hans Miller: I have no idea!
Kevin Horek: Okay, interesting…
Hans Miller: It was just something I became interested in. I always felt that some of the most challenging problems and puzzles that can affect the most people are in the government world, and I believe that applying the lessons and tools of the private sector can help with those, and that became something I focused on. I went to grad school to cover both of those angles and have been fortunate enough to have the chance to actually put it into practice.
(2:44) Kevin Horek: Very cool. So walk us through your career up until Airside. You guys built a really successful passport app. Do you want to talk about that along the journey, too, and then how that became Airside?
Hans Miller: Yeah, sure. It’s funny, I think of the old Steve Jobs quote that you can connect the dots looking backwards, but…
Kevin Horek: Yeah. (Laughs)
Hans Miller: …okay, it’s hard to do that looking forward. My career started at McKinsey, and at the time I was one of the few people that was interested in doing public-sector work; there weren’t a lot of us that were interested.
As a result, when 9/11 happened, the White House called a serial entrepreneur named Kip Hawley and said “Hey, we need you to help figure out what the response to airport security is going to be.” He decided to call, I don’t know, twelve or fifteen major companies in the US, and asked them to send somebody to join the team. That phone call somehow ended up on my desk and I had the world’s shortest interview.
I met Kip down on a metro platform in L’Enfant Plaza, and I said “Hi, I’m Hans Miller. I was told to meet you here.” He said, “Say something intelligent.” And I said, “I want to help the country.” He said, “You’re hired.” So that was an awesome moment.
(4:00) We built what ultimately became TSA. We hired 60,00 people at 450 locations in ten months.
Kevin Horek: Wow!
Hans Miller: Obviously there’s a lot of jokes at TSA’s expense and I think some of that comes from when you grow an organization that quickly, there’s bound to be bumps. I think now that TSA is approaching 20 years old, we’ve seen it mature and become a lot more stable and a lot more professional, and continues to improve. So that’s been good.
(4:36) As a result of all that, I got really interested in how airports work and how processes work, and how can you embed security into things that make the experience flow more smoothly and be more convenient and more efficient overall. How do you get those wins that are wins for both industry and the government?
Kevin Horek: Interesting.
Hans Miller: Yeah, it was great. So I met Adam in 2006. One of the projects we worked on together was bringing mobile boarding passes to the United States, and that was a really successful project that we put into place with working very closely with the airlines and airports, and it was a great example of a federal agency and industry coming together to make change happen very, very quickly at relatively low cost, as opposed to sometimes a traditional government program that can take a long time and a lot of money to run. So it was really all about how do we make this standard that the industry can adopt? And it worked out really well. About that same time, the iPhone came out.
(5:45) Kevin Horek: Right.
Hans Miller: And I think we all realized pretty quickly, hey, this is a big deal. If you can use the iPhone to make it so you don’t need to stop anywhere to check in, what else can you do with it? What other lines can you eliminate? We started looking around.
We founded Airside in 2009. We started off with a few different apps: a multi-airline check-in app, which was really cool but difficult.
Kevin Horek: Yeah, I can imagine.
Hans Miller: We made the first mobile app for ordering food for delivery inside the airport…
Kevin Horek: Oh, interesting.
(6:22) Hans Miller: …which we worked closely with HMS Host. We got that stood-up at about a dozen airports or so. And then in , we had the idea for Mobile Passport. We went to our old colleagues at Homeland Security and suggested it, and suggested a path for how it might work, and we worked really closely with them to set standards around security and privacy and operations that would work for them while we took on the challenge of figuring out how to make it user friendly. And that was the birth of Mobile Passport.
Kevin Horek: Interesting. It’s been really successful, correct?
Hans Miller: I think so. Everybody on our team is quite proud of it. I think we’re proud that CBP (U.S. Customs and Border Protection) had the foresight and flexibility to work with us on it; it’s really a joint win. And the airlines and airports obviously have a huge role to play in making it successful as well, so it’s really a team effort.
We launched with one airport in the summer of 2014 in Atlanta. We had great support from the community, and we ran a test there for six months, and then we expanded it to four additional sites for another six months. And then finally in 2016, we really got rolling and we rolled out nationwide, working closely with CBP and Airports Council International, who, along with Airlines for America, are big sponsors of the app and really helped make it take off.
(8:03) Kevin Horek: Very cool. So, walk us through what you guys are building now at Airside.
Hans Miller: Sure. So one of the things we realized when we were going through the Mobile Passport experience is that we were helping CBP give travelers a digital identity experience…
Kevin Horek: Right.
Hans Miller: …and people love it. So we started to think, well, where else could we do that? How else could we help? And, not surprisingly, the travel industry is really interested in this. There’s been a lot of experimentation and testing around using facial recognition to automate boarding and automate customs, automate all kinds of check-in and bag checks, and the problem that kept coming up in the industry was, when you take a picture of somebody in order to let them board an aircraft–instead of having to fumble with their boarding pass–what are you comparing them to? What’s the reference photo that you trust? And second of all, who’s going to be responsible for storing and managing that reference photo?
Kevin Horek: Right.
Hans Miller: So that was a big question that really got highlighted when GDPR and the California Consumer Privacy Act came out, along with some other state laws. So when we built Mobile Passport, we said, “Hey, let’s not have a central database full of people’s identity and information…
Kevin Horek: Smart.
(9:45) Hans Miller: …that seems like a bad idea.” So we said, “Let’s really focus on privacy. Let’s make that one of our calling cards. Let’s set it up so that the individual owns all of their data, it’s only stored on their phone, only they can access it unless they choose, actively, to share it with a third party.” And so that’s what we’ve built. We’ve built a new set of tools that allows the traveler, or anybody else for that matter, to scan in their official government identity document.
(10:22) Kevin Horek: Okay.
Hans Miller: We then verify that through techniques–sometimes going directly to the government-source data–and we can say, “Okay, this identity is real and this photograph is a government-source photograph that we can trust,” and we lock that down on the individual’s device. Nobody at Airside can actually get into that account once it’s set up.
Kevin Horek: Right. Okay.
Hans Miller: We’ve got another API, and now an airline can invite a traveler to say, “Hey, do you want to have a biometric seamless travel experience today?” You can say, “Yes, I consent. Here’s my photograph for the next four hours,” after which point it becomes unreadable.
(11:07) Kevin Horek: Okay, so it’s like a set time limit. That’s smart.
Hans Miller: Yeah.
Kevin Horek: Okay. So I want to dive a little deeper into that, then. So it’s stored on my phone. What happens if I get a new phone or I lose my phone?
Hans Miller: That depends on what choices that the individual has made around backing up their phone.
Kevin Horek: Okay.
Hans Miller: So we don’t have an account. If you lose your phone and you haven’t backed it up, you’re going to have to start over.
Kevin Horek: Yeah, that makes sense.
Hans Miler: You have to rescan your identity information in. We can’t help you.
(11:42) Kevin Horek: Okay.
Hans Miller: If you’ve transitioned everything into iCloud or what have you, then that’s easy to restore it, and that’s up to each individual’s risk calculus and how comfortable they are doing backups or how they do their backups.
Kevin Horek: Okay. That makes sense. So walk us through some of the other features. You mention IDs and flying, but what other use cases can I use the app for?
Hans Miller: Sure. So one of the things that we’re really interested in, and we’re getting quite a strong reaction to right now, is around telemedicine and health. I think the whole COVID situation has made it pretty clear that telemedicine is here to stay. The challenge, of course, is how do you know that your doctor or your healthcare provider is legitimate and not somebody pretending to be a doctor? And the flipside is also important: how does a healthcare provider or an insurance company know that you’re a real person and that you are who you say you are?
(13:00) So being able to enable a reliable digital identity service that uses government source data that doesn’t have a huge honeypot of a central database of personal information and meets all the privacy requirements from new regulation, we think is a key piece to that puzzle. And the act of consent, the ability for someone to say, “Oh, my doctor is asking me for permission to view my records and prove who I am. I consent for that purpose, for this individual, to see that for a certain amount of time.”
Kevin Horek: Right.
Hans Miller: That’s pretty powerful.
(13:43) Kevin Horek: That’s amazing. I think people have kind of longed for that stuff for years. At least people like myself have really wished I could have everything on my phone. Because I don’t remember certain things, and it’s just like, here, I’ll just give you access to my data or my phone quickly so you can have a quick look at whatever you need off that. Especially if it’s your doctor or somebody you trust, right?
Hans Miller: Yeah, absolutely. And the thing that’s so interesting to us is, the first twenty years in the internet were all about accumulating data, aggregating data. Everybody wanted all the data they could possibly get, and for good reason; they made a lot of money with that. But if the model up until now was I would give a business my name and address and phone number and email, what they were doing on their backend was verifying that with any number of contractors that had vast piles of data, and that sort of self-replicates over time and that’s where all the privacy headaches come in.
(14:55) When GDPR came out, and when the Illinois biometric law came out, and CCPA came out and huge fines started to be assessed, two hundred million dollar fines and whatnot, a lot of companies had started to say, “Wait a second. We don’t want to touch any of that. We’re in the business of providing healthcare, we’re in the business of taking you to Paris. We’re not in the business of selling data, and therefore we don’t want that liability.” That’s a huge shift.
Kevin Horek: Totally.
Hans Miller: They still want the marketing information and that’s all fine, because you can do that without getting into PII, but the ability to prove someone’s identity without having to maintain a massive database of all their personal details is a major shift in how the market’s thinking about identity.
(15:52) Kevin Horek: Why do you think that is? And why do you think people have been–that whole mindshift has shifted? Because it’s only been within probably the last few years, and I think obviously, what’s happening right now with COVID-19, has really pushed that forward.
(16:11) Hans Miller: Yeah, well I think there’s a couple things. I think on the consumer front, people have talked a big game about privacy for a long time, but when you get right down to it, most consumers will give up their information for any incremental convenience they can get.
Change has come in where it’s become expensive and risky for big companies, big main street companies, to ingest and store all that PII. You risk getting fined, you risk having security breaches, you risk being all over the news. All of that is, I think, something that companies have come to the conclusion that this stuff is actually a liability, and you’ve seen companies hire chief privacy officers. Fifteen years ago, only a handful of companies had a chief privacy officer and they were kind of unusual animals. Now chief privacy officers have a huge amount of sway in how a company acts online. So I think the regulatory environment changed, the threat and the risk of carrying data from the security point of view changed, and we think privacy is actually going to be driven by enterprise as opposed to by individual consumers.
(17:36) Kevin Horek: Why do you say that? I agree with you, but I’m curious.
Hans Miller: Because again, I think it goes back to the companies have, it’s a dollars and cents issue. If they’re breached or they violate GDPR, they’re facing pretty big fines. There’s a real business case for them not to get involved. Now it might be, obviously, it’s going to be different for someone like Facebook where their whole business model is based on data, but if I’m American Airlines or I’m United Healthcare, I’m probably going to look at that a little differently. And at the same time consumers, we all say, “Privacy! Privacy! Privacy!” But then you go on Facebook or Instagram and people are putting everything on there, right? Sometimes more than anyone will know, so I think that’s what’s going on there.
(18:31) Kevin Horek: No, that’s fair. It’s interesting. It’s almost like privacy, to me, it’s almost kind of dead, right? It’s like you need to figure out how comfortable and what amount of data you’re willing to give away, and you’re going to end up giving away more than that just without even really realizing it, unless you go through a huge amount of time and effort to stay off certain sites. Or if you do, you create fake–there’s this whole other side of it, right? And so having access and knowing what is out there that I can control, I think in a lot of cases is going to be really important to a lot of people. And sure, businesses are going to be the ones that build that and decide that for people, not people. Do you know what I’m trying to get at there?
(19:23) Hans Miller: I absolutely get that. I also think there’s a certain amount of innocence that we’re still burning through around privacy. I don’t think privacy is dead. Privacy might be comatose, but —
Kevin Horek: Okay, interesting.
Hans Miller: — in the mind of the consumer, but when you start looking at what Clearview and other facial recognition companies have been doing, where they’re scraping images off of social media, off the web, there are now companies that are buying archived security footage from years and years ago. And now you can run facial recognition backwards; you can see where I was 20 years ago. That’s pretty creepy.
Kevin Horek: Totally. 100%.
Hans Miller: You look at the protests that just happened, right? How many folks who showed up at a protest are now in the database, based on video? I think over time, we’re going to find that privacy is a really, really important part of having a functional democracy. It hasn’t seized the public’s consciousness yet.
Kevin Horek: Interesting. I agree with you. I’m curious then, how do you guys deal with the different privacy rules in different geographic locations? Then I’ll ask you my follow-up question after that.
(20:55) Hans Miller: We try to look at what is the gold standard for privacy and let’s turn that into a feature, let’s make that an advantage for our company. It’s really interesting when we look at China; that’s a market I think we would be very wary of going anywhere near because it has absolutely the opposite model of what we’re all about. We strongly support GDPR, we strongly support CCPA, we think Illinois’ biometric law is 100% right. We want the individual to be able control how their identity information is distributed. We think that’s just super important.
(21:44) Kevin Horek: I 100% agree with you. It’s interesting. But how does it work, though, if I live in a certain state or whatnot, and I travel to one of the countries where their privacy and some of their laws are a lot different, and I need a medical procedure or something, is it possible…? I guess what I’m trying to get at is, how do you judge the jurisdictions of…because I will create data at different places in my lifetime in different privacy regions that may or may not play nice together. So how do you guys manage that or bridge that gap? Or is it not really relevant at all because I’m putting in my own personal information?
(22:43) Hans Miller: I think it’s more the latter, but I think we would say this: we expect our relying parties to be transparent about what happens to the information after they get it. So if you’re, let’s say, flying into Illinois, the Illinois law has various provisions, one of which is you have to have active consent for someone to run biometrics on you. But then your next flight is from O’Hare to Beijing. You still may choose to share your photograph with some Beijing airport authority, but you should probably be aware that in doing that, the Beijing airport authority may choose to do different things with your data. So what we can do is make you aware of where you’re sending it, and that’s a step up, but what it does is it allows an airline or a healthcare system to not have to persist that data; they don’t have to be responsible for it. If they have to pass it onto a government because of regulations, they have to do that, but it doesn’t need to be persisted by that business.
(24:04) Kevin Horek: Yeah, interesting. And then I guess, though, the thing that’s interesting to me is once you release your data, you’re basically hoping that what the other person is telling is you is the truth, right?
Hans Miller: You are.
Kevin Horek: Like anything you post online is basically, it’s kind of there forever, or potentially there forever.
Hans Miller: Potentially there forever. But if you’re submitting it to United Airlines, United Airlines has got a pretty good reason to not break the law.
Kevin Horek: Yeah, fair. Okay.
Hans Miller: So as long as those laws are being enforced, then I think the consumer should have some confidence, at least with reputable companies, that their data’s not being misused in secret.
(25:01) Kevin Horek: Sure. And I guess you are more likely…well, you’re going to cherry-pick who you share information, or at least which information you share with certain companies and not. Like with some airlines you might give more information than other airlines, for example. I don’t know specific examples, but we do that all the time with brands now in the physical world, right?
(25:25) Hans Miller: That’s right. That’s exactly right. The difference is in this environment, there’s a real motivation for companies not to have to build giant databases of people’s photographs. And we can help them avoid doing that. That’s essentially what our value prop is.
Kevin Horek: Sure. So what happens, though, if I lose my phone and somebody gets into it because I don’t have a password or something on it? How do you guys manage security on the phone and privacy on the phone?
Hans Miller: In that event, you can… there are kill switches, right? You can wipe out your phone account remotely. If you haven’t set up anything like that… Look, you can lose your wallet, too. There’s a certain amount of personal responsibility that has to go along with all of this. I think what we’re saying is, we put a password on the app. We put encryption inside the app. The data’s encrypted both in transit and at rest. Can you still be careless? Yeah, you can take a screenshot of it and put it on Facebook, and we can’t stop you from doing that. So there’s some personal responsibility that goes in, of course, but again, what we’re doing is making it possible for people to have more control.
(26:53) Kevin Horek: Sure. So how does it work generally? Like I upload my driver’s license, for example. Do most places…do you need some sort of relationship with all the different vendors or is it a case-by-case basis? Or is it really up to the place I’m trying to get into that needs my ID to make sure I’m of age, for example? How does that work?
Hans Miller: We have an API that we provide to any business that would like to operate in this network. So what that means is the API allows a business to send an invitation to a consumer and then receive the data. And the data is encrypted and it has what amounts to cryptographic time keys on it, so after the specified amount of time, it’s no longer readable by that relying party.
Kevin Horek: Okay. But if I just pull up my driver’s license inside the app and show it to somebody at… if I’m trying to buy liquor for example, does that…like it’s up to them to decide if that’s valid or not. Is that fair to say, at least at this point?
(28:12) Hans Miller: Yeah, I think right now we would say, we would not recommend that. And I don’t think state law would support it. There has to be a network… we believe very strongly there needs to be a network verification of a digital token.
Kevin Horek: I 100% agree. Yeah, okay. Because if I show a physical ID card or my driver’s license or something, sure, you could fake it, but you have to do a pretty good job. And then there’s a bunch of legal sides to that. But if I just show somebody a photo of something from a phone, it’s kind of…like your app’s irrelevant from that. Like I could take a photo of a friend’s ID and hand up my phone. If they buy that, then it’s kind of on them, right?
(29:00) Hans Miller: Yeah, I think that’s right. Our position is we’re really trying to help create a digital experience that uses government source data without a central database and with nominal privacy.
Kevin Horek: Sure. You’re basically building something that’s way more secure than the physical things that we use every day, like our driver’s license, our passport, and all that stuff, right? But I think sometimes people forget that the digital experience is a lot more secure, like 99.9% of the time, than paper copies or plastic physical copies we have of some of these things. I think that mindset is shifting, but I don’t think 100% of people are there yet. And I think with what you guys are building, obviously that mindset’s going to change as their friends and family really start using this stuff.
(30:02) Hans Miller: Yeah, I think that’s right. We learned a lot from Mobile Passport. What we learned is, for a very, very large number of people, it’s just not an issue of trusting it or not. I think people are going to carry a physical ID with them for a very long time because there’s some comfort in knowing you’ve got something in your pocket that’s physical, at least for my generation, right? But when we talk to our friends in government, when we talk to our friends in highly regulated industries such as finance or travel, there’s a very keen awareness of the fraud and counterfeit problem that’s out there, and there’s the increasing belief that physical tokens in and of themselves, it’s just a game of one-upmanship, it’s Whack-A-Mole, and that’s not a sustainable model. So something new is going to come along, it’s going to be digital in nature, and I believe very strongly it will be networked.
(31:17) Kevin Horek: Yeah, that makes 100% sense. And then eventually, as more and more countries and other things are starting to share data, or you’re allowed to share data with these other countries or places you’re going, it’s only going to get better. And more secure for everybody involved.
Hans Miiller: Yes.
Kevin Horek: Interesting. How do you guys decide what new features to roll out? Because you’ve built some really big apps that are being used by a lot of people, and it’s tricky sometimes to roll out big changes or big updates. Obviously you need to test like crazy when you have that many users going out, but how do you decide how to move these platforms forward when you have such big user bases? And is there any advice or tips that you have for people that are working on these large-scale apps that lots of people are using?
Hans Miller: Oh boy. I think my team is going to kill me for this question! I don’t think we have that process totally figured out yet, to be very honest.
(32:38) Kevin Horek: I don’t think most people have.
Hans Miller: When our company was small, we would — we’re still very small — but when we were four or five people, we would literally sit around in a room and debate it, and even on a couple of occasions, we voted. As we’ve gotten a little bit bigger — we’re still pretty tiny — it’s become a little bit more of a process. It’s a combination of what are we hearing from the marketplace, what do we think is a good idea, and what can we realistically execute within a certain amount of time? And so it’s a messy process for us and something that I think we’re going to be working to improve.
(33:25) Kevin Horek: Sure. I love the honesty because I think it’s really tricky and there’s not a guidebook to it, and it really depends on what you’re trying to build. Obviously when you guys are building something that’s privacy-focused, really, that has to be the number-one priority. Sure, a million features could maybe get built, but if they break the whole privacy side of the app, then there’s no point in doing that, right? Where I think people forget about that sometimes.
(33:52) Hans Miller: That’s totally fair. We take that for granted; I probably should have said that up front. There are certain things we simply don’t do, and honestly they don’t come up in conversation, because that’s where we’re starting from. What’s harder for us is…let’s say, we see an opportunity with a government agency to do something cool, and the question is going to be, how long is it going to take to get everybody on board who needs to be brought on board?
Or we have opportunity with company A and an opportunity with company B and we can’t do both, so which feature do we think is more important, more widely usable? Can we stack them sequentially? Those are the calls that are hard. We very rarely run into a situation where should we do something, is it the right thing to do? I think the company has been pretty clear on privacy and security from the get-go because we all know that if we screw that up, we’re dead, so we don’t push the envelope there.
Kevin Horek: That makes a lot of sense. I want to dive a little bit into the business side. So how does a business actually go about partnering with you guys and leveraging your technology?
(35:18) Hans Miller: Great question. We have an API suite that we make available, and we welcome… companies will reach out to us or we’ll reach out to them. We’ll get them on board with a demonstration and then documentation for the API kit, and then we’ll provide any guidance or assistance needed to get that API up and running. Typically we’ll spend a lot of time up front talking about the use case and help think through the process flow so that the company can use our technology in the most effective way. But it’s really about getting documentation into the hands of the right people and coaching people on how to deploy it.
(36:09) Kevin Horek: Yeah, I suppose, hey? That’s interesting. So traditionally, and it’s probably a little bit all over the map, how long does it roughly take for a company to actually get up and running and start using your technology, and then letting their customers verify with Airside?
Hans Miller: It can take as little as three or four weeks–
Kevin Horek: So pretty quick.
Hans Miller: Or it can take as long as three or four months, depending on what kind of legacy systems are involved and what our customer’s planning processes look like. If it’s a straight-ahead and they’ve already thought through what they want to do, and they’ve got it all under control and thought out, it’s a very quick integration.
Kevin Horek: Sure. So how did you guys fund the development of this? Did you bootstrap? Did you raise some money? Walk us through that side of the business.
(37:12) Hans Miller: In the beginning it was pretty–we did a lot of bootstrapping. In 2017, we did an A-round with Grotech, Bain Capital Ventures, and Blazar were the leads in that. We also had participation with Thomson Reuters, which was tremendous. And with that, we were able to take — we had already built Mobile Passport at that point, but it was really, really, thinly staffed. I believe at the time there were four of us, and we already had two and half million members and we were in a dozen locations, and were drowning. So the last two and half years we actually had some funding, we’ve been able to build out the broader identity solution that we just talked about, and we’re really excited because we have financial stability now to look ahead five, seven years into the future, and we’re pretty excited.
Kevin Horek: Nice. So how do you guys monetize the platform then?
(38:27) Hans Miller: Sure. There are a couple different things. Our fundamental belief is that the value we’re providing to the business is considerable because we’re lowering their liability, we’re making things more efficient for them, giving them the advantages of implementing digital identity solutions without having the disadvantages of having to worry about all the data.
Kevin Horek: Sure.
Hans Miller: So we look for — we’ve got a couple of different fee models that businesses can choose from depending on what works for their business model, whether it’s per-transaction or monthly flat fees, things of that nature. We believe there will be certain special situations where we think we have something extra to offer directly to consumers, and we have done some of that with Mobile Passport plus. We may do some more as we can find a way to make our solution more valuable to consumers, we’ll certainly do that.
(39:27) Kevin Horek: Sure. Interesting. That’s really cool. We’re coming to the end of the show, but are there any other links or sites that you want to mention, and then make sure you give us where people can get more information about Airside?
(39:46) Hans Miller: Sure. I encourage everyone to read what we’re all about and see some of our demos over at airsidemobile.com, and please download the Mobile Passport app because one of these days we’ll all be able to travel again and go on vacation to fun places, and who wants to wait in line? That’s mobilepassport.us.
Kevin Horek: Perfect. Well Hans, I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to be on the show, and I look forward to keeping in touch with you. Have a good rest of your day, man!
(40:18) Hans Miller: Thank you very much for having me, and have a great day! Take care.
Kevin Horek: Thanks. You, too.